To elaborate on why I will never subscribe to the Meidas Touch: For one thing, I object to the random interruptions by long testimonial ads. But I really can't tolerate Ben Meiselas anymore. He has called the prison in El Salvador where Abrego-Garcia was sent an "extermination camp" at least twice. That is outrageous and a grave insult t…
To elaborate on why I will never subscribe to the Meidas Touch: For one thing, I object to the random interruptions by long testimonial ads. But I really can't tolerate Ben Meiselas anymore. He has called the prison in El Salvador where Abrego-Garcia was sent an "extermination camp" at least twice. That is outrageous and a grave insult to the victims of the Nazi Holocaust and other genocides that really did involve extermination camps. Really, he can go fuck himself.
Gulag inmates were sentenced by courts to the gulags for fixed terms (e.g. 10 years). As far as anybody knows, nobody ever gets out of CECOT, and many confined there have never been taken before a judge or received a penal sentance. Inasuch as the El Salvador government does intend to keep the men it has imprisoned in CECOT as slave laborers for the rest of their lives, I think comparisons to the camps of the Nazi regime are not out of line.
If the detainees are forced to do hard labor unto death, that would be identical to Nazi slave labor camps, but putting people in harsh prisons without parole is not an extermination camp. It's like the cheapening of the word "genocide" to mean any kind of brutality, human rights violations or war crimes someone wants to use the word for. If "trying to wipe out an entire people by killing them off" isn't what "genocide" means anymore, we need a different word that does mean that.
Probably not a conversation I want to go along with very far but there are acts of genocide that don't involve immediate murder: "Any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. " This is from the UN in 1948 I think but it covers adopting children out to erase their language and culture and forced sterilizations.
Right. But if the word doesn't mean an attempt to wipe a people out, we need a different word for that. And if harsh prisons are "extermination camps," we need another term for places where people are gathered to be murdered.
How many years has it been in operation? Also, during Stalin's reign, millions and millions of people were shot dead. So I don't know in which context the gulags were better. Not in Stalin's time, at least.
My problem with Kirschner is that he couldn't believe the Supreme Court would be so bad and so forth. I have listened to him a lot, and he couldn't believe Trump would get away with his crimes, but he unfortunately proved blind to reality.
I agree, but no-one is helped by crying wolf before there is a wolf. By the way, I was part of the demonstration in New York today, and none of the signs I saw claimed Trump is conducting a genocide against immigrants now, though I wouldn't put it past someone to have had such a sign. Did any of you go to demonstrations in other places today?
Exactly. Harrison, you are right if you're talking about Jewish refugees from Nazi occupation, not mere individuals whose lives might be in some level of danger but who are not members of a people all of whom are marked for murder/execution. Not letting refugees enter or stay is a violation of the Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_Relating_to_the_Status_of_Refugees), but you are overusing and weakening the meaning of "genocide" just like someone who calls a slap on the head "murder" would be trying to weaken the meaning of that word.
To elaborate on why I will never subscribe to the Meidas Touch: For one thing, I object to the random interruptions by long testimonial ads. But I really can't tolerate Ben Meiselas anymore. He has called the prison in El Salvador where Abrego-Garcia was sent an "extermination camp" at least twice. That is outrageous and a grave insult to the victims of the Nazi Holocaust and other genocides that really did involve extermination camps. Really, he can go fuck himself.
Not an extermination camp. But it is a concentration camp. Or, more accurately, a gulag.
Yes a prison with forced labor, thrash conditions and a medium death rate i.e Gulag.
Gulag inmates were sentenced by courts to the gulags for fixed terms (e.g. 10 years). As far as anybody knows, nobody ever gets out of CECOT, and many confined there have never been taken before a judge or received a penal sentance. Inasuch as the El Salvador government does intend to keep the men it has imprisoned in CECOT as slave laborers for the rest of their lives, I think comparisons to the camps of the Nazi regime are not out of line.
The police officers are also given arrest quotas which have been known to cause innocents to end up in the gulag.
If the detainees are forced to do hard labor unto death, that would be identical to Nazi slave labor camps, but putting people in harsh prisons without parole is not an extermination camp. It's like the cheapening of the word "genocide" to mean any kind of brutality, human rights violations or war crimes someone wants to use the word for. If "trying to wipe out an entire people by killing them off" isn't what "genocide" means anymore, we need a different word that does mean that.
Agreed - I really don't like the overuse of the word "genocide" that we've seen so frequently recently.
Probably not a conversation I want to go along with very far but there are acts of genocide that don't involve immediate murder: "Any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. " This is from the UN in 1948 I think but it covers adopting children out to erase their language and culture and forced sterilizations.
Right. But if the word doesn't mean an attempt to wipe a people out, we need a different word for that. And if harsh prisons are "extermination camps," we need another term for places where people are gathered to be murdered.
"As far as anybody knows, nobody ever gets out of CECOT"
That's a pretty good point; has anyone ever been recorded actually getting out of there? If not, in many ways it's WORSE than the gulags.
How many years has it been in operation? Also, during Stalin's reign, millions and millions of people were shot dead. So I don't know in which context the gulags were better. Not in Stalin's time, at least.
I'm fine with "gulag," not extermination camp!
Agreed. We are not well served by Meiselas’ hyperbole.
For whatever it’s worth, I far prefer listening to e.g. Bryan Tyler Cohen, Simon Rosenberg or Jennifer Rubin.
I don't love Tyler Cohen's tendency to rant at length to the choir, but that's my personal taste. He is a pretty good interviewer.
I mostly watch BTC's channel for his interviews with Marc Elias (Democracy Watch) and Glenn Kirschner (The Legal Breakdown).
My problem with Kirschner is that he couldn't believe the Supreme Court would be so bad and so forth. I have listened to him a lot, and he couldn't believe Trump would get away with his crimes, but he unfortunately proved blind to reality.
Trust me, if Trump had his way it would be an extermination camp.
Can’t disagree.
I agree, but no-one is helped by crying wolf before there is a wolf. By the way, I was part of the demonstration in New York today, and none of the signs I saw claimed Trump is conducting a genocide against immigrants now, though I wouldn't put it past someone to have had such a sign. Did any of you go to demonstrations in other places today?
Not having open borders is the "soft" version of a genocide against immigrants-slippery slope and all.
I generally oppose immigration restrictions, but they aren't remotely close to genocide and it isn't helpful to throw the term around.
Exactly. Harrison, you are right if you're talking about Jewish refugees from Nazi occupation, not mere individuals whose lives might be in some level of danger but who are not members of a people all of whom are marked for murder/execution. Not letting refugees enter or stay is a violation of the Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_Relating_to_the_Status_of_Refugees), but you are overusing and weakening the meaning of "genocide" just like someone who calls a slap on the head "murder" would be trying to weaken the meaning of that word.